John Bowen Synth Design

by **HUROLURA** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:09 am

n1nj4 wrote:
HUROLURA wrote: So I suspect a desktop model of the SOLARIS would be arround $ 3000/3500 if the spec is just removing the keyboard, wheel and maybe the Ribbon but keep the rest.
with that in mind, I would estimate a Solaris 2 or 3u rack module, with one graphics display and limited I/O, to run around $2300.

The Solaris minus the keys would probably be limited to housing re-design which would limit the developpment cost to this part.
The keyboard to keyboardless price difference would probably be similar so a Solaris Deskstop would cost more than $3000 provided it can share the same electronics as the full keyboard SOLARIS.
The price difference would be quite similar to the price difference between TI keyboard and TI desktop.

Modifying the SOLARIS would lead to a hardware and software re-design and so significant develeppment cost.
The team would have to find an alternate way to handle the sound design.
So this would mean time and effort and a partially or totally different hardware/software depending on how modular the initial design was.
So the comparison point on Access Music range would be more the TI Snow model (similar physical rescaling).
Just keep in mind how long it was for access to launch the TI Snow after the TI (3 years) and you can imagine what the developpement effort was.
Also keep in mind that the TI Snow which cost 40% of the TI Keyboard or 60% of the TI desktop.
So if you evaluate the Keyless SOLARIS at a $3200 price, speculating the same price ratio would provide you a cutdown "Snow"-like minidesktop Solaris version to the $2000 floor.
To achieve this you should spare on DSP and expect 50% less power (as what is done on TI Snow), spare on IO and accept what is spared on the control elements part...
Question is if people would accept this type of product without a host computer based editor software which would still have to be designed.

So just let the SOLARIS start selling and see what would be next afterwards.
If the Solaris sale figures are significant enough, then evaluate the interest for a desktop keyboardless version maybe one year after.
Then if everything is still OK wait 3 years more to design the MiniDesktop Solaris for the masses...

by **n1nj4** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:19 am

marzzz wrote:A Virus TI keyboard lists for $3460US, and sells for $3140; The desktop model lists for $2520, sells for $2290; Given that the Solaris is currently at $4K, I think it would be a pretty amazing job on JB's part if he can get a 3u desktop model out the door for under $3K.

The Virus TI desktop has all the same controls and I/O of the Keyboard version. If you are referring to a Solaris minus the keys, then sure, that pricing makes sense. A simple Solaris rack module with one screen and limited I/O should be significantly less.

by **John Bowen** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 8:18 pm

marzzz wrote:A Virus TI keyboard lists for $3460US, and sells for $3140; The desktop model lists for $2520, sells for $2290; Given that the Solaris is currently at $4K, I think it would be a pretty amazing job on JB's part if he can get a 3u desktop model out the door for under $3K.

As usual, marzzz is pretty much right on target...and I do appreciate everyone's interest in this, but I really have to say this is all very speculative (especially as I have no idea how many people would buy a Solaris module/rack/whatever for $3000), so let's get the keyboard finished and out there, and see how things go after that.

by **marzzz** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:57 pm

A Virus TI keyboard lists for $3460US, and sells for $3140; The desktop model lists for $2520, sells for $2290; Given that the Solaris is currently at $4K, I think it would be a pretty amazing job on JB's part if he can get a 3u desktop model out the door for under $3K.

by **n1nj4** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:33 pm

HUROLURA wrote: So I suspect a desktop model of the SOLARIS would be arround $ 3000/3500 if the spec is just removing the keyboard, wheel and maybe the Ribbon but keep the rest.

with that in mind, I would estimate a Solaris 2 or 3u rack module, with one graphics display and limited I/O, to run around $2300.

by **HUROLURA** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:28 pm

The "Blind Soaris" would probably be the cheapest way to provide an expansion module to the SOLARIS to add some more Polyphony or play some extra tracks, with no real link/dialog between both unit except for the MIDI NRPN message.
Only the preset management part should be kept then and there a small display + the num pad and a few keys should be enough.
Could also be used as a preset-box or used with some external masterkeyboard/midi controller ...

The Creamware Klangboxes were probably too blind and suffered from the same limitation as the ASB (one part only, one plug only, no preset name display).
They still (?) kind of survived in the Plugiator/ASX which probably sold a bit more but still didn't provide the flexibility of the NOAH Ex (which was not that much of a success either, from what I remember

).

Providing such a "Blindbox" Solaris could be a wayto offer something more integrated (one sound-design flow with choice of modules/routing flexibility) in the manner of the Clavia G2 Engine. A Host computer based editer could be also designed afterward. I have seen somewhere there are people waiting for a Clavia Modular G3 ....

by **John Bowen** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:39 pm

That's a pretty good estimate, Hurolura. Well done!

The idea of a "blind Solaris" sounds frighteningly like the idea of the Creamware Klangboxes!! I don't think these sold very well...if at all. (It would be the cheapest way to get the Solaris sound, though.)

by **HUROLURA** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:06 pm

n1nj4 wrote:
I can't imagine needing more than a pair of inputs and outputs on a monotimbral synth. In terms of reduced DSP, increase the price as necessary, or make more DSP an optional upgrade....I must admit, I find it surprising a Solaris module would cost more than an Origin module, in terms of spec, to produce.

Just in term of DSP power (rough MFLOPS figures without taking into account the power of the BlackFin which probably also take care of what the "old" DSP do in the XITE range of products and if you assume MFLOPS comparison between Sharc and TigerSharc is so easy).
So, from what I understood from the lines in this forum, the SOLARIS would provide :
=> 50% of the DSP power of an Xite-1 (same range of price in the $ 4000 range, but needs a host computer + probably some external MIDI control elements)
=> 133% of the DSP power of an Xite-1D (probably 60% of the Solaris Price)
=> 200% of the DSP power of the Arturia ORIGIN (the desktop is around $ 2500 while the keyboard version should be $ 3500)

So I suspect a desktop model of the SOLARIS would be arround $ 3000/3500 if the spec is just removing the keyboard, wheel and maybe the Ribbon but keep the rest.
Just something similar to what Oberheim Matrix 12 (keyboard) to Xpander comparison was (a 38' unit instead of a rackable 19' unit ).
This would save most of specific coding part and keep both product have the same firmware: just concentrate on casing/repacking the same hardware boards.

: Solaris desktop dream ...; solaris Desktop dream.jpg (10.07 KiB) Viewed 21556 times

Another maybe cheaper option could be an external rack just providing a blind SOLARIS that can be remote controlled by a SOLARIS but this would assume that the user interface part (keyboard, knobs and display ...) is phisically separated in the electronic design of the SOLARIS from the DSP and IO boards and also that the boards are small enough to be integrated in a 19' unit.
The large number of knobs and display provided on the SOLARIS also contribute to the price.
I guess such a device would require more work.

by **John Bowen** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:38 pm

qtuner wrote:There are not enough resources to work on two products. If you happen upon a second John Bowen, please let us know.

Nice of you to say that, but it's not just me....there is a very small team making this happen, and we just don't have the manpower of an Arturia (for example). Another issue is financial resources - I don't think people really understand how much money it costs to make a Solaris or an Origin product (as n1nj4 mentioned). Certainly, Arturia, having been around for a while (10 years and selling lots of products), has more financial resources as well.
One example where this comes into effect is quantity parts ordering. Ask any botique Modular synth maker - if one could order larger quantities of parts at once, you can save up to 30% more than ordering in the smaller quantities that I've had to do. Obviously, this affects your end price.

by **qtuner** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:53 am

n1nj4 wrote:I guess the bottom line at this point is pacifying the pre-order customers. They're a needy bunch, them.

There are not enough resources to work on two products. If you happen upon a second John Bowen, please let us know.

by **n1nj4** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:09 am

I guess the bottom line at this point is pacifying the pre-order customers. They're a needy bunch, them.

by BF » Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:30 am

qtuner wrote:As a preorder customer, I urge that development of the module wait until the Solaris keyboard is more mature. I would wager that a mature sound module would sell better.

Granted I'm biased, but I second this sentiment. I have a feeling that those who desire the Solaris in module format will end up having an unrealistic concept of price point.

by **n1nj4** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:36 am

John Bowen wrote:
n1nj4 wrote:Alas, the Solaris will only be obtainable by the deep pocketed. Seems a real shame to target such a narrow market. A module priced at around $2295. street would not only get the Solaris in the hands of a lot more musicians/producers, but would also appeal to the considerable number of folks who don't care for synths in the form of a keyboard, let alone a behemoth one.
To produce a module at that price would require a reduction of functionality. Less DSPs, reduced inputs/outputs, etc.

I can't imagine needing more than a pair of inputs and outputs on a monotimbral synth. In terms of reduced DSP, increase the price as necessary, or make more DSP an optional upgrade....I must admit, I find it surprising a Solaris module would cost more than an Origin module, in terms of spec, to produce.

by **John Bowen** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:41 am

n1nj4 wrote:Alas, the Solaris will only be obtainable by the deep pocketed. Seems a real shame to target such a narrow market. A module priced at around $2295. street would not only get the Solaris in the hands of a lot more musicians/producers, but would also appeal to the considerable number of folks who don't care for synths in the form of a keyboard, let alone a behemoth one.

To produce a module at that price would require a reduction of functionality. Less DSPs, reduced inputs/outputs, etc.

by **n1nj4** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:12 am

Alas, the Solaris will only be obtainable by the deep pocketed. Seems a real shame to target such a narrow market. A module priced at around $2295. street would not only get the Solaris in the hands of a lot more musicians/producers, but would also appeal to the considerable number of folks who don't care for synths in the form of a keyboard, let alone a behemoth one.

John Bowen Synth Design

Solaris Module?

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