S/H on LFO is not really random

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Patate le mgae
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:17 am

S/H on LFO is not really random

Post by Patate le mgae » Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:47 am

Hi, perhaps not a bug and perhaps already report and discuss but i can't find the entry.

Take a blank pattern
Osc 1 : Source 1 : LFO 1: Amount 20 : Dest : Pitch
LFO 1 : Shape S/H : 0.000Hz (or a little more, <0.250Hz is ok ) retrigger : on ( but it's not necessary )

Play repetitivly one note : you obtain a succession of exactly 7 notes, wich repeat indefinetly.

Why is it embarassing for me : i'd want to use this way to give a little random to my sounds, but 7 is a little too small for that.

Perhaps is there something i don't understand here.

Patrick

John Bowen
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Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 3:00 am

Re: S/H on LFO is not really random

Post by John Bowen » Sun Nov 24, 2013 6:35 pm

I really don't understand your report!

If I use these settings, and play one note repeatedly, I get the same note, until the LFO changes it to the next value. Especially at that slow of a rate, you will get no change just by playing one key repeatedly (and there should be no change when the Rate is at 000 Hz).

One of my early proposals for a random source for every key press was exactly this - a LFO Rate of 0.0Hz and Retrigger set ON, with S/H as the waveshape, but we never implemented that.

What else do you have going on? Arpeggiator? Step Sequencer? (What it sounds like is using the Step Sequencer in Key Step mode with a sequence length of 7.)

Patate le mgae
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:17 am

Re: S/H on LFO is not really random

Post by Patate le mgae » Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:55 am

Hi John,
i've made a little video.
Sorry for my English, but i never speak English.
Hope you can understand it.

http://youtu.be/OOClYB6DZ_Q

If other users can try this, it could help to understand what i'm doing wrong.

John Bowen
Site Admin
Posts: 1757
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 3:00 am

Re: S/H on LFO is not really random

Post by John Bowen » Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:20 am

Thanks for posting the video. I made a similar one, which you can see here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/solaris_sy ... hotostream

I think you have a misunderstanding....

Even though I don't get the same results as you, I would note the following:

1) when you change the LFO to S&H, each voice will get output from the LFO. This output will be a random value.
2) If the rate is slowed down that much, you obviously won't hear changes that often, so for each key you are playing, it will be at the last value received from the LFO.
3) Retrigger only works for the phase setting, not the random output.

If you speed up the rate, you should hear the S&H random values. Just repeatedly playing a key doesn't reload the LFO values - turn up the rate, hold down several keys, and you should hear random values change at the adjusted rate.

I think what you are expecting is what I described as a way to get random values for every key press in my first response above, but this was not implemented. We could do it, though, as we are still discussing the best way to implement, but for right now, this is not how the LFOs work. The S&H output is constantly going, just as any other waveshape. Test it again with your rate settings, but use the Square wave instead of S&H, don't use Retrigger, and let me know what you hear.

john b.

Patate le mgae
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:17 am

Re: S/H on LFO is not really random

Post by Patate le mgae » Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:25 pm

OK John,
i understand what you explain.
So this has something to do with the 8-voice of polyphony.
I try the same experiment with unison and now i don't have 7 notes but less and less when i increase the univoice parameter.
After that i obtain the final proof it has something to do with polyphony : i turn my Solaris in Monophonic mode, and now it ,reacts as yours.
It's very strange our two units don't react the same, are you in mono or in poly mode in your video ?

John Bowen
Site Admin
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Re: S/H on LFO is not really random

Post by John Bowen » Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:27 pm

It's the standard INIT preset, in Poly mode.

Patate le mgae
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:17 am

Re: S/H on LFO is not really random

Post by Patate le mgae » Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:43 pm

Thank you John,

so we have to think about this strange difference.

Patrick

John Bowen
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Re: S/H on LFO is not really random

Post by John Bowen » Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:25 pm

Patrick,

It's only that your voice count is getting loaded with the random values at start - try it using a Square wave, and post if you get the same result.

Or try it with the S&H, but right after a fresh reboot - that way, the note buffer will be cleared out.

John B.

Patate le mgae
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:17 am

Re: S/H on LFO is not really random

Post by Patate le mgae » Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:37 am

John,

you are right, when i reboot my unit the note is always the same.
If i play some minutes with a sound with LFO , i have the seven notes sequence in sort of inpredectible way when i try again.

I'll wait for an update and hope you can implement a cv retrigger on the S/H LFO.

Thank you very much for your help, as usual.

Patrick

jaykeel
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Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:53 am

Re: S/H on LFO is not really random

Post by jaykeel » Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:34 am

This is pretty much what i tried showing you a while back JB. When you go to one of my presets called "Pacing in Rhythm", and if you play say any triad and move the mod wheel up while holding the chord you'll notice a nice "in sync" S/H. It kind of pumps and breathes and will do this as long as you hold the chord. However, after doing this for 3 or four different chords you'll notice that the sync is gone between the notes in the chord and is now out of sync and kind of all over the place.

Since I love playing that song all the way through on my Solaris this is indeed frustrating. Does this have to do with some sort of buffer JB? It's been bothering me since day one when I first tried recreating the patch. Would love to get this fixed :)

John Bowen
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Re: S/H on LFO is not really random

Post by John Bowen » Thu Nov 28, 2013 11:31 pm

Hi Jay,
So....it does seem like the S/H waveshape is ignoring the Retrigger option. What this essentially should be doing is forcing all the voices to receive the same LFO phase position & value of the selected LFO waveshape, but it's not doing that with the S&H because of the random output. I'll have to get Julian to take a look....

John

sam
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Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:39 am

Re: S/H on LFO is not really random

Post by sam » Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:52 pm

Is this bug on the list of things to be fixed in the upcoming OS update?

John Bowen
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Re: S/H on LFO is not really random

Post by John Bowen » Fri Mar 11, 2016 11:38 am

sam wrote:Is this bug on the list of things to be fixed in the upcoming OS update?
It is now.

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