Initial note onset delay when using Sus pedal in Preset Mode

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John Bowen
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Initial note onset delay when using Sus pedal in Preset Mode

Post by John Bowen » Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:40 pm

I had a customer report this in November, but I wasn't clear on the bug, and didn't find what he was describing.

Today I got another request from him about it, with a bit more detail, and I was able to reproduce the problem quite easily.

When using a sustain pedal assigned to Sustain, and only when Preset Mode is on, when you press down the pedal, the first notes played are slightly delayed (for each time the pedal is turned on). It seems there's something going on that is taking time to calculate so that the first note-on events are getting delayed in processing.

I investigated this further, and found that the following Destinations, when assigned to Sus. Pedal 1, all cause this to occur:
Sustain, Ribbon Hold, Sequencer On, Arpeggiator On, or Arpeggiator Hold

You have to be in Preset Mode (Preset LED lit) to show the bug.

Note that it does NOT happen when using the front panel Hold button, so obviously it's having to do with the routing of the Sus. Pedal 1 when engaged.

Odd that this wasn't seen earlier...but I've added to the list, and would expect it will be fixed in the next OS release.

John B.

Scott_V
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:02 am

Re: Initial note onset delay when using Sus pedal in Preset

Post by Scott_V » Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:54 am

I actually noticed this bug immediately upon playing the Solaris for the first time. I was initial running through a few of the presets to get familiar with the instrument, and with my use of the sustain pedal, I quickly found the note delay problem. I thought I'd check the "Bugs" section of the Forum, and looks like I'm not alone with this discovery. And as John has summarized in the investigation of the problem it appears related to Preset mode only (of which I came to the same conclusion in playing around with my own quick troubleshooting). I indeed hope that this bug gets resolved with a new release of the OS (sounds like it should be an easy fix). The work around of leaving the Preset mode to properly play the instrument without the note delay is indeed quirky (since a very basic function is often just stepping through Presets).

On a related note of initial observations with sustain pedal use, I noticed that some of the presets would allow unlimited replaying of a single key note while other presets would stop playing completely at a count of 10 key strikes. I understand theres probably a 10 note limit with the DSP's, but what algorithm logic is at work that prevents short sustain notes cutting off completely with some presets and not others?

Thanks,
Scott V.

John Bowen
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Re: Initial note onset delay when using Sus pedal in Preset

Post by John Bowen » Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:29 am

Scott,

Possibly it's the Envelope Reset (EgReset) parameter in the Home page?

EgReset
Shutdwn mode forces the envelopes to be reset to zero
for each new note-on event. In Running mode, the envelopes
continue running from wherever they are currently
when a new key is pressed.

Scott_V
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:02 am

Re: Initial note onset delay when using Sus pedal in Preset

Post by Scott_V » Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:29 pm

Hello John,

I'm able to recreate the 10 note limit vs unlimited note replay issue with the sustain pedal (good A/B comparison below):

A) Bank 9, Prog 69 (TE "Crystals") has a 10 note limit when holding down the sustain pedal - i.e. no further notes past 10 can get triggered while holding down the sustain pedal
B) Bank 9, Prog 70 (TE "Square") has unlimited note when holding down the sustain pedal - i.e. one can play unlimited notes while holding down the sustain pedal

Note: Your original idea that maybe toggling the 'EG Reset' could be the explanation unfortunately did not resolve the behavior observed. Am I missing something in how the DSP algorithms do voice allocation, or is there a bug here somewhere? I run across this re-trigger behavior with various presets and can't find why that may be the case (however, I'm new to the vast depth & flexibility of programming and might be missing something obvious in these presets just not yet discovered by myself).

Thank you,
Scott

John Bowen
Site Admin
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Re: Initial note onset delay when using Sus pedal in Preset

Post by John Bowen » Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:20 pm

I suspect it's a bug.

Damo Diggler
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Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:08 am

Re: Initial note onset delay when using Sus pedal in Preset

Post by Damo Diggler » Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:09 pm

Yep, I got to say mine is doing the same... regardless of the patch, you can get this to act consistently by selecting a new patch whereas SusPed1 = Sustain / Polarity = "+". The workaround ? ...change the polarity from + to - then back to +...then it behaves as normal.

k-Tracker
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Location: Mather, California
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Re: Initial note onset delay when using Sus pedal in Preset

Post by k-Tracker » Sun Jun 29, 2014 8:55 am

I have found some workaround for polyphony management during sustain. That's a bit annoying for me, making not natural response from the instrument. The workaround is based on S-CC-Sustain vst plugin. It provides polyphony management, basically, by taking Sustain CC64 message and calculating Note-OFF messages instead of CC64.

http://www.s-production.de/index_vst.html

So, it can be used for the instruments without sustain capabilities and in our case for avoiding polyphony bug. Bad news it is Win only. I have tested it successfully under OSX + VirtualBox with WinXP and dedicated USB MIDI interface for that purpose. Works Ok, but makes the set up more complex.

See screenshot:
Screen Shot 2014-06-29 at 6.30.50 PM.png
S-CC-Sustain plugin
Does anybody know similar plugin for OSX (VST is preferred)?
Andrei Kudryavtsev,
http://www.deftaudio.ru

ostrovitch
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:30 am

Re: Initial note onset delay when using Sus pedal in Preset

Post by ostrovitch » Sun May 17, 2015 2:49 pm

k-Tracker wrote:I have found some workaround for polyphony management during sustain. That's a bit annoying for me, making not natural response from the instrument. The workaround is based on S-CC-Sustain vst plugin. It provides polyphony management, basically, by taking Sustain CC64 message and calculating Note-OFF messages instead of CC64.

http://www.s-production.de/index_vst.html

So, it can be used for the instruments without sustain capabilities and in our case for avoiding polyphony bug. Bad news it is Win only. I have tested it successfully under OSX + VirtualBox with WinXP and dedicated USB MIDI interface for that purpose. Works Ok, but makes the set up more complex.

See screenshot:
Screen Shot 2014-06-29 at 6.30.50 PM.png
Does anybody know similar plugin for OSX (VST is preferred)?
I wanted to try this plugin (scc-sustain lite) but it seems can't be recognized modern versions
of cubase (cubase 8 in my case).
So I wrote my own VST for windows. By the way I get a 32 and 64bits version
and it works fine.
The deal is to filter any sustain on/sustain off midi CC, for never sending it to the Solaris.
Instead, dealing with Note On/Note Off, and on the solaris put the susped1 and susped2
to off, but still keep a polarity + or -.
:idea:

John Bowen
Site Admin
Posts: 1655
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 3:00 am

Re: Initial note onset delay when using Sus pedal in Preset

Post by John Bowen » Mon May 18, 2015 11:21 am

Scott_V wrote:Hello John,

I'm able to recreate the 10 note limit vs unlimited note replay issue with the sustain pedal (good A/B comparison below):

A) Bank 9, Prog 69 (TE "Crystals") has a 10 note limit when holding down the sustain pedal - i.e. no further notes past 10 can get triggered while holding down the sustain pedal
B) Bank 9, Prog 70 (TE "Square") has unlimited note when holding down the sustain pedal - i.e. one can play unlimited notes while holding down the sustain pedal
Scott, I checked this again, and by turning off the Legato, or changing it to Retrig. mode, the problem goes away with TE “Crystals”. The Reassign algorithm is locking in the voices as if they are being held, but because the VCA sustain is at zero, all the voices are playing ‘silently’.

Note that this doesn’t need a foot pedal plugged in - you will find the issue just by using the Hold button.

john

christeck
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:13 am

Re: Initial note onset delay when using Sus pedal in Preset Mode

Post by christeck » Mon May 18, 2015 11:56 am

I also stumbled upon this bug rather quickly. I thought it was a "quite obvious" bug, and it also was mentioned Sep 17, 2014 (viewtopic.php?f=21&t=16244&p=21025&hilit=hold#p21025)

Thanks for the pointer to switching off preset mode, since I didn't find this workaround by myself.

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