Sttrrrrrrrrretch! 88 keys, anyone?

Discuss John Bowen Synths - Solaris
RichardKC6
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Sttrrrrrrrrretch! 88 keys, anyone?

Post by RichardKC6 »

Hi! Just showing up after a nice email discussion with John; thought I'd see if anyone else likes my idea or if I'm going to have to be creative ;)

This is a long post: The gist of it, if you have a case of TL;DR is "I'd really like a Solaris, but I have space for an 88-key weighted controller and would like to have only one device".

A bit of background: I've got a small project studio. I used to have a large project studio that was more akin to a museum, but moved house, and frankly I was getting fed up of spending more time trying to work out how to make MIDI behave on things like D-50s and TX816s and worrying that my old analogue things were going to die of old age (my AlphaSyntauri used to make me extra nervous). I've sold a lot and bought new stuff, and the current state of play is in my signature.

I'm really happy with what I have, but the Trinity as a master keyboard is suffering from old age - the AT strip is failing, the case is a bit beat-up (it belonged to a touring band in the UK, Space, and so was a bit the worse for wear when I got it). Also sounds-wise, I never use the arranger functions and the soundset is outclassed by the Roland XV.

I was going to buy an OASYS (the PC-in-a-shell, not the SHARC based device) until I learned more about them. Also, same thing as the Trinity - I don't need the arranger functions. I have a Mac with Cubase.

Now it could be that I'm fussy or very specific. But what I want is:

A graded (think KX8 or Korg's RH3 mechanism) hammer action piano-weighted 88-key keyboard.

A new synthesis source.

Space is tight; I don't want a module and controller - I want an instrument I can just play and is self-contained, but whilst I'm not a trained pianist, I've been using proper weighted controllers for almost a decade and I have this hope that the continued familiarity will allow me to play proper piano when I have the inclination and time. I want the muscle-memory to understand that "this is what a keyboard feels like".

As it stands, John's prepared to make it happen if I'm prepared to pay for it, and the costs only slightly exceed a new OASYS, but that's still a lot.

In terms of product justification:

People who buy high-end synthesizers usually like a wide sonic palette and probably also use piano sounds. However, most weighted devices are either arranger-keyboards with balls like the M3, OASYS, Motif etc. - or they're dedicated stage pianos with a long shelf life. The K2600 is very good, but it's 1992 very good under the hood.

I can upgrade my piano sounds to the latest and best using constantly evolving computer technology. It really is "sample and synthesis" at the core and that's something that gets left behind quickly - look at Roland's JV family, you've got a new - and still imperfect - piano every 2 or 3 years from them.

But a synthesizer - that's something else. Once the technique for synthesis is established it remains "useful". So a long-lived keybed and a long-lived sound source? Ideal.

This is deliberately overlooking the fact that John's past work was looking at some devices which ultimately evolved into exceptional modeling capabilities and I've no doubt that the Solaris character could be "changed" to provide a killer piano with all those DSPs :D

So. What would you think of an 88-key, weighted Solaris? Would you pay a premium for it (the typical premium for 88 over 61 keys is between £700 and £1000, but smaller runs=larger overhead I am assuming). Would you be happy with "A Solaris with more keys", or would you only be interested if there were more controllers or similar (I don't want more, though I thought it would leave room for a larger ribbon). Would you want clever mechanical engineering or be happy with an essentially featureless extra area, just a wider synth? I personally use the empty areas on my Trinity as a surface for controllers and interfaces, so I like empty space.

What I want is nothing more than a wider Solaris. No extra features or interfaces beyond the keyboard. Width could even be saved by moving the wheels from beside the keyboard, to above it alongside the joystick.

If anyone else wanted such a thing, then there's a possibility it could happen.


(Just to clarify, my reluctance to go with Korg's current OASYS has a lot to do with how they implemented it and the impression I get of their ability to support it long term from their forums. I think the product - as a finished object in front of you and playing it in isolation - is stunning. I'm just disappointed that for the money, it's all software, no DSPs, no "cleverness", just 6 year old PC technology in a nice shell - the lack of evolution means I'm really reluctant to go for it on a value basis).
Writer, photographer, musician, goth.
Rehabilitated collector, car nut and geek.

Studio: Moog Voyager+VX+CP, V-Synth XT, Trinity Pro X V3, XV3080, Virus Indigo 2, Inpulse One. X-Station for noodling.
seamonkey
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Post by seamonkey »

Hello Richard, welcome to the forum. :)
For those of us who have preordered Solaris it has been an interesting journey as we watched Solaris go from a prototype to the Limited Edition production model as shown recently at NAMM 09.
The main interest for me in purchasing Solaris is because of it's amazing user friendly UI which harkons back to the synths of the past and it's magnificent sound engine.
As a home hobbyist, 61 keys is fine for me, plus I have limited space since my studio is in a rather small area, as it is the length of the Solaris will barely clear the edge of my mixing desk and computer table.

I would think John chose to go with 61 keys because a)it's the most common one used and b)the added cost of a 76 or 88 note keyboard. As it is now you are looking at $4000USD for the 61 key version, and, as you noted the cost of a larger version would rival that of the Oaysis.
At present the demand for Solaris is in unchartered waters, we have no idea how many units will be purchased in the future, so it seems to me to be talking about an 88 keyboard is much too early, however, if enough customers would be willing to pay the extra amount and it would mean putting Solaris into more musician's hands than that would be a good thing.

I have the feeling once this gets out into the hands of musicians and is being used in recordings and soundtrack work, demand will go up but for now, I can't even consider any changes until the first units begin shipping and we the users begin to experiment with it and use the many features already in Solaris.
RichardKC6
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Post by RichardKC6 »

I think mechanical changes are less of an issue than getting the UI, software and actual operation of the synth right; though of course I may be entirely wrong! I'm used to classic synths, the appeal of the Solaris to me (and why I've gone "must find a way to make it fit!") is the flexibility of the sound engine. I'd never have an outboard DSP and softsynth on a computer, not because I feel this is inferior, but because I like to switch on a single device and play it as a single instrument; likewise the many DSP synths out there (I have a Virus Indigo 2 already) are designed with a very rigid format.

To me, an 88 key Solaris I think would tick these boxes:

New, unique synthesis possibilities.
Master keyboard controller without wasting space on either a soundless controller like the VX8 (I know it can have a General MIDI board added, but what is this, 1988?).
What sounds to me like the ability to create sounds like a PPG Wave without having to own a temperamental and rare old synth or a ludicrously expensive (and big) Waldorf Wave.
Some VS/Wavestation qualities.

it can cost as much as an OASYS. The OASYS, no disrespect to Korg, isn't all that if you're working with DAW stuff anyway; I can load my Mac with a whole whack of softsynths - for the money I could buy a VERY nice setup with the outboard DSPs and considerably more processing power.

Bear in mind that something like my Voyager setup costs over £3000 rrp (I paid a little less since I got it when a UK retailer closed down; nearly bought a Poly Evolver or the new Prophet, but the store hadn't set them up right!). Cost-wise, good, unique and not-mass-produced instruments are going to be expensive.

I'm certainly not criticising John for going with 61 keys. I don't even think a weighted 88 key keyboard would have figured anywhere in the planning process - who ever heard of a synthesizer built this way? I expect any keyboard discussion would have been "43, 44, 49 or 61 - wait, we need this area for controls and interface - 61 it is" - and an entirely logical result :D

I know it sounds silly, but to have a Solaris as is, I'd need to replace my Virus or Moog, and I don't want to do that. I don't want a Virus desktop as I often play the whole synth, little keyboard and all. After cutting down from 13+ synths and then a lot of other gear, I am very reluctant to get back into the habit of GAS.
Writer, photographer, musician, goth.
Rehabilitated collector, car nut and geek.

Studio: Moog Voyager+VX+CP, V-Synth XT, Trinity Pro X V3, XV3080, Virus Indigo 2, Inpulse One. X-Station for noodling.
marzzz
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Post by marzzz »

I would think that the Solaris would have the Virus covered, wouldn't you agree? I think you may want to consider selling off the Virus and replacing it with a Solaris. I am in a somewhat similar situation with regard to space, and happen to already have room, but I would love it if the Solaris was also able to do decent enough analog emulation that I could sell my Andromeda too!

As far as 88 keys- it is pretty rare to see that in a pure synth these days, 61 (or less) seems to be the norm, and the complexity of the Solaris demands at least 61 keys; any less and they should go all the way to zero (a desktop or rack version). If they were going to go 88, the keybed would have to be absolutely fantastic, and I personally would want polyphonic aftertouch!
RichardKC6
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Post by RichardKC6 »

The thing with the Virus is that it's an Indigo 2. 37 keys. It's small and I can take it places with me (I wanted a Ti, but the cost over the Indigo 2 was silly, 4 x as much). It's on a stand above my Voyager.

But okay, you'd want it to have poly A/T and a fantastic keybed. The latter, not hard I think, the former would probably be "very expensive". I'd like poly A/T too, but I think it would need a different interface for the keyboard.
Writer, photographer, musician, goth.
Rehabilitated collector, car nut and geek.

Studio: Moog Voyager+VX+CP, V-Synth XT, Trinity Pro X V3, XV3080, Virus Indigo 2, Inpulse One. X-Station for noodling.
dingebre
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Post by dingebre »

While I do love the feel of a nice 88 key weighted keyboard, my preference for a synthesizer is semi weighted. So, to answer your question, I would not want to nor would I pay an extra 700 to 1000 pounds (whatever that is now in US Dollars) for that option.
David

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scope4live
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Post by scope4live »

For me it's perfect the way it is.
I was used to 61 note synths and an Oberheim XPander.
I get both with Solaris. I even get the Oberheim Filter sound, so I am quite happy with my purchase.
I remember the days where developers released synths and the customers had no input on the design or features.
Thankfully T. Oberheim, Bowen, D. Smith and B.Moog knew what was needed.
To have one of the founding fathers listening to us and implementing requested features over the last year is way more than any other developer will ever do.
Knowing JBowen, I bet he is thinking about a way to release an 88'r though......... :lol:
Magnus C350 on a TV Dinner Tray Stand with 2 x PigNose Amps for stereo


https://soundcloud.com/jimmyvee/wormhole
RichardKC6
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Post by RichardKC6 »

dingebre wrote:While I do love the feel of a nice 88 key weighted keyboard, my preference for a synthesizer is semi weighted. So, to answer your question, I would not want to nor would I pay an extra 700 to 1000 pounds (whatever that is now in US Dollars) for that option.
Sorry, I'll use Euros.

So, 700-1000 Euros. (Pound has reached almost exactly 1:1 with the Euro now) ;)

I'm not going to complicate things by bringing 88-key semi-weighted into it; I asked John about graded mechanisms and I think it'd be a different chassis again for a semi-weighted (or a lot of empty space).

I should clarify (again). I don't think that 61 keys is the wrong amount of keys, or that synthesizer weighting is wrong. I'd prefer 88 keys fully weighted because buying a weighted keyboard has always meant yet another sample & synthesis source, usually with a load of arranger functions I'll never use, or an empty controller. When what I'd really like is to be able to justify a really good new synthesizer AND my master keyboard in one unit.

I also happen to really like the little keyboard on my Voyager, it's fast and responsive (particularly the A/T response, where I can manage violin-style vibrato) - but I don't want to control the whole lot from it :)
Writer, photographer, musician, goth.
Rehabilitated collector, car nut and geek.

Studio: Moog Voyager+VX+CP, V-Synth XT, Trinity Pro X V3, XV3080, Virus Indigo 2, Inpulse One. X-Station for noodling.
RichardKC6
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Post by RichardKC6 »

seamonkey wrote: At present the demand for Solaris is in unchartered waters, we have no idea how many units will be purchased in the future, so it seems to me to be talking about an 88 keyboard is much too early, however, if enough customers would be willing to pay the extra amount and it would mean putting Solaris into more musician's hands than that would be a good thing.
I sort of missed this bit, but I had a response:

Right now, the Solaris looks like it will be hand-built. If there isn't a production model with 88 keys - which would be unprecedented, I believe, in this class of device - then this IS the time to talk about it - when an appropriate keybed can be found, when the intervention to assemble it does not involve disrupting a production line.

The more I read and learn about the Solaris the more I want one. VS, PPG... and my gut feeling is that careful work with samples and response will give it a stunning piano as well as the pure synthesis stuff. I am unbelievably into it.

I think the point of getting rid of my Virus was made before and the other factor there is value. I'd get very little back for it, maybe 1/6th of the cost of a regular Solaris. And I'd still need an 88-key synth, and I'd still end up looking at the higher-end kit. It is worth it to me to at least thoroughly investigate the possibility of making this, to the extent of considering obtaining keybeds myself to look into the interfacing and dimensions.

In a vaguely related way, there's a lot more to keybeds than just the mechanism. I got an X-Station this weekend as a "sitting around and playing on my laptop" toy, and many reviewers have raved about the keybed in it. I thought it felt odd and spongy in places, and with it being secondhand, stripped it down to check what might be causing this.

At spaces along the top of the keys, under the case, were rubber/foam buffers. Not a strip of it, but just four or five of these. The keybed articulates (it looks like the same manufacturer as the Virus Polar I repaired for someone - someone needs to tell Access to buy better fitting cable connectors or learn to use a hot-glue gun ;) ) when aftertouch is used, providing a very "physical" confirmation that the additional movement is being applied. These buffers were preventing the articulation.

Now either setup would be fine - the AT worked either way - but this inconsistent approach irked me. I may fit a rubber strip the full length as I suspect the purpose of the blocks is to make the horribly cheap X-Station feel a little less like it's about to fall apart/rattle on the keys if you lean on it to use the MIDI controllers. It's a great product in many ways, but it's cheap, and made accordingly.

What I really didn't understand was how anyone could review this keyboard as having an excellent action; particularly when the same publication has criticised the same mechanism in say, the Virus KC.

I have an advantage when looking at wanting an 88-key graded Solaris - I don't want to gig with it. It's purely a studio instrument for me; if I ever were in the position of having to play music live then I'd buy a regular Solaris because I am a shameless evangelist for any product I like (I work in media and publishing). This means it can have a solid construction; I'm considering if I were to DIY an extruded aluminium chassis of a castellated (internal) design with minimal distortion. I don't care if the end result weighs 40Kg+, I don't need to make thin steel folded support the heavier keybed. The hammer action models may be self-supporting anyway (I don't recall much flex in the Trinity one when repairing it last time), but it can't do any harm to give them a firm base.

If John decides to make something for me or for general sale, then I will go with whatever his engineers recommend/want to do, as they have the experience and facilities. If I DIY something, I might get clever and have carbon fibre components for the casing, which are expensive for mass production, but not significantly more so for one-off fabrication. I know a few people fabbing stuff for cars.
Writer, photographer, musician, goth.
Rehabilitated collector, car nut and geek.

Studio: Moog Voyager+VX+CP, V-Synth XT, Trinity Pro X V3, XV3080, Virus Indigo 2, Inpulse One. X-Station for noodling.
urge
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Post by urge »

It's perfect for me as well the way it is. It would need a major overhaul if it was to become my main controller: 88 weighted keys, Poly-AT, Release velocity, 3 zone programmable ribbon with arpeggiator that can send out signals, Assignable faders and assignable knobs. In essence it would need to replace the Kurzweil Midiboard with expressionmate and peavey 1600 I currently use.
Personally I'm happier the way it is with the bulk of my $$ going to the synthesis engine and interface rather than for controller functions I already have elsewhere.
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Post by John Bowen »

RichardKC6 wrote:The more I read and learn about the Solaris the more I want one. VS, PPG... and my gut feeling is that careful work with samples and response will give it a stunning piano as well as the pure synthesis stuff. I am unbelievably into it.
Richard, just a brief reminder here - the sample RAM planned is only 32MB, not really enough for a serious sampled piano. The intention with sample playback in the Solaris is more for mangling/textures/elements that you'd want to have in a synthesis process.
-jb
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Post by John Bowen »

marzzz wrote:I would think that the Solaris would have the Virus covered, wouldn't you agree?
My sense, after some extended lilstening to a Virus TI, is that the Solaris will not be able to give you the same kind of character - the algorithms that produce the "Virus sound" are pretty different from what we are doing.
-john b.
marzzz
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Post by marzzz »

John Bowen wrote:
marzzz wrote:I would think that the Solaris would have the Virus covered, wouldn't you agree?
My sense, after some extended lilstening to a Virus TI, is that the Solaris will not be able to give you the same kind of character - the algorithms that produce the "Virus sound" are pretty different from what we are doing.
-john b.
JB-

Knowing that it is all pretty subjective, how would you "characterize" the sound of the Solaris vs the Virus? I ask because I am pretty familiar with the Virus sound (having owned a Virus b).
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Post by John Bowen »

I can't say regarding the Virus B - I only played with the TI - but I would say the Virus has more 'hardness' to it - I don't know how else to describe it in my mind.
-john b.
RichardKC6
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Post by RichardKC6 »

John Bowen wrote:
RichardKC6 wrote:The more I read and learn about the Solaris the more I want one. VS, PPG... and my gut feeling is that careful work with samples and response will give it a stunning piano as well as the pure synthesis stuff. I am unbelievably into it.
Richard, just a brief reminder here - the sample RAM planned is only 32MB, not really enough for a serious sampled piano. The intention with sample playback in the Solaris is more for mangling/textures/elements that you'd want to have in a synthesis process.
-jb
John, the sort of thing I had in mind was more of a 'more realistic' sample and synthesis approach to a piano; as you say the pure sampled piano would take up far more space, but depending on what I could do with the samples it could offer a more expressive "synth" piano. I don't think many of the proper sampled pianos deliver 32MB of ROM FWIW; the capacity of a Roland SRX board is often put at "64MB", but then they have a habit of referring to Megabits, not bytes, and/or "when converted to linear 16-bit format". IIRC the K2600 has 4MB.

A good piano isn't even tertiary to what I want. It's so far down the list it's hanging off the bit that says "can I emulate an Ondes-Martenot by creating a valve stage and different speaker cabinet emulations", which is itself pretty low down (I keep wondering if modeling would allow a recreation of the Martenot resonator).

I'm just saying it would be unfair of me to suggest that the Solaris couldn't make piano sounds. It's the textures and pads I want it for, that's why I want PPG-esque wavetable, VS-esque blending. I loved my original Wavestation - the A/D lost something for me because I wasn't actually "playing" it, losing the joystick's easy access spoiled it. If a Wavestation EX with the A/D's complete spec (including XLR out and audio in) had come out I'd still have one now.
Writer, photographer, musician, goth.
Rehabilitated collector, car nut and geek.

Studio: Moog Voyager+VX+CP, V-Synth XT, Trinity Pro X V3, XV3080, Virus Indigo 2, Inpulse One. X-Station for noodling.
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